So basically I think "no evil on Earth before the apple" is complete bs, bc there's evidence Adam and Lilith already had free will

Evil and free will are 2 vastly different things

And it wasn't eating the apple that caused evil, it was the act of disobedience

Well Lucifer was banished before he could teach anything and Heaven didn't seem to care enough to try either

Tbf, we don't actually know how long it was before he was banished

We do know that the book left out the fact that Adam is the leader of the Exorcists, therefore making him look comparatively better than his true self

Not really tho. visually we did see it (so i assume it'd be in the book as well), and would hell even know who the leader is? we don't even know who wrote the book or when it was written (for all we know it could've been someone who who wrote what they thought to be true based on hearsay and rumors rather than what actually is true)

Also the book was like 300 pages long, but charlie only said like a page worth of info, so we got more like a brief summary anyway (remember, it jumped ~10,000 years from the creation of hell to charlie existing)

Overall i think you're using a lot of speculation as fact from a book that was short and in some ways vague with gaps

So even if the book isn't entirely reliable, at the very least it can't be biased against Adam

Like this is entirely your own opinion with no evidence except "it doesn't say something" so you've create speculation and say that its true

And no ones saying its biased against adam, except YOU. you brought up something no one was talking about and you're using it to say we're wrong when no one said that. you are the one with the bias, and you seem very focused on that one thing that wasn't mentioned, which is the basis for basically everything you're saying and stating is true

Irl, it was likely left out to create narrative question to be answered when he's revealed later in the episode. in-universe it could've been left out because its a childrens book about hell, not heaven or humans, so adam's more like a footnote to more important, hell-related things, and his story stopped being important after lilith left him (he was shown with explanation twice, both times in relation to lilith, and was mentioned a third time but completely about eve (i'm excluding him being shown with the extermination because that's as a generalization about heaven), he wasn't important)

Real Adam = major threat who's been committing yearly genocides against Lilith's kingdom, he's far worse than just a "rude ex" that the book was suggesting

While lilith has been living with him in a deal where she appears to not want to go back to hell

I'm sorry but what does Adam "not always committing Exterminations" even have anything to do with this, like you keep repeating it even after I elaborated on the book making him look better-

I'm sorry but what does your biased speculation based on literally nothing that YOU brought up have to do with anything, like you keep repeating it but it doesn't make it true :\

"order" in quotation marks since Lucifer was just trying to free her

From how viv describes him, it seems very possible that he didn't do it out of generosity but because of his ambitious dreams (which previously in the book made him a troublemaker in the eyes of the elders, so it wouldn't be the first time he's done something for himself)

Also, given the implications that lilith was planning a rebellion against heaven, how do we know that the book isn't toning down lucifer and lilith's roles to be more sympathetic. it doesn't need to paint the enemies negatively (even though it does do that in small amount) to make the king and queen of hell seem like the good side (like a kind of "this all DID happen, but we're not including some things" kind of representation is very possible)

Evil and free will are 2 vastly different things

And it wasn't eating the apple that caused evil, it was the act of disobedience 

Free will includes the capacity of both good and evil

The act of disobedience refers to Lucifer disobeying Heaven by giving Eve the apple, which basically kick-started everything

So the overall order is Lucifer's disobedience -> Eve eating the apple, which allows her and her descendants to have free will, but also leads to the creation of Hell/Sinners -> Heaven goes "oh there's evil on Earth now!!"

Tbf, we don't actually know how long it was before he was banished

...Do you genuinely think it's possible Heaven actually allowed Lucifer to stick around to teach an entire race- /nm

And even if Lucifer was able to, say, teach Eve & Adam, it wouldn't be effective to teach only 1-2 ppl at the beginning of the race, since it would basically end up like a game of telephone as generations pass

(Plus now that I think abt it, the teaching thing doesn't matter much bc humanity eventually taught themselves abt morality anyways)

Not really tho. visually we did see it (so i assume it'd be in the book as well)

We do know Charlie reacts to Adam in ep1 like it's the first time she found out that "the first man Adam", so yeah that's evidence that Charlie was never told abt him being the Exorcist leader

and would hell even know who the leader is? we don't even know who wrote the book or when it was written (for all we know it could've been someone who who wrote what they thought to be true based on hearsay and rumors rather than what actually is true)

It happened to be quite accurate when it comes to Lucifer and Adam's personalities, I doubt it was written by some rando who was relying on rumors

And no ones saying its biased against adam [...]

I'm sorry, the original post in the 1st place was written as basically a rant after I've seen way too many toxic Adam stans claim that the book is biased against him (despite evidence hinting otherwise) and use that to bash Lucifer/Eve/Lilith

So when I was writing the comments I was kinda operating on that whole mentality, that's on me and I apologize for that /gen

While lilith has been living with him in a deal where she appears to not want to go back to hell

This only adds to my suspicion of Lilith having "weird Stockholm Syndrome" (as much I hate that possibility-)

From how viv describes him, it seems very possible that he didn't do it out of generosity but because of his ambitious dreams (which previously in the book made him a troublemaker in the eyes of the elders, so it wouldn't be the first time he's done something for himself)

I mean he was offering freedom to a human slave

I don't rly see how that could be anything ambitious

Like, I guess I can maybe see something like, "now humans can use free will to come up with creative/fun stuff and make the world more lively (as opposed to just being mindless slaves)" which would at least fit his circus theme

But that's not rly harmful and still ultimately beneficial for humanity

Also, given the implications that lilith was planning a rebellion against heaven, how do we know that the book isn't toning down lucifer and lilith's roles to be more sympathetic. it doesn't need to paint the enemies negatively (even though it does do that in small amount) to make the king and queen of hell seem like the good side (like a kind of "this all DID happen, but we're not including some things" kind of representation is very possible)

I actually do think the book is biased for Lilith, and that her causing an uprising might be possible

But not so much for Lucifer however, since it just paints him after the fall as being immediately depressed/giving up and not trying anything afterwards

There's also this inconsistency:

1. At some point it says "Together, they wished to share the magic of free will with humanity, offering the Fruit of Knowledge to Adam's new bride, Eve", with "they" referring to both Lucifer and Lilith

2. Blah blah Hell is created yada yada

3. But then the book says "Heaven cast Lucifer and his love into the dark pit he had created"

So the book is only blaming Lucifer for the creation of Hell, even though technically both him and Lilith are responsible, and at the same time the book still gives her credit (along with Lucifer) for "giving humanity free will"

Anyways I still stand by my original belief that Lucifer isn't responsible for Sinners CHOOSING to be evil

Side note: during Lucifer vs Adam fight, when Adam got mad abt Lucifer judging him, he (Adam) didn't even mention Lucifer allowing evil into Earth, even tho it would've made sense for him to bring it up in that context

He only said Lucifer is "the most hated being in creation", basically only attacking his reputation instead of the actual bad thing that he (supposedly) has done

I wonder if Adam knew anything

So basically I think "no evil on Earth before the apple" is complete bs, bc there's evidence Adam and Lilith already had free will

This implies there was evil on earth before the apple was eaten, but if there was then there wouldn't have been a problem with evil entering earth

So no, evil and free will are not the same. you can do evil with free will but you don't have to be evil to have free will. they may have had free will before eating the apple, but there was no evil before then (so there's clearly a difference between the evil and adam wanting dominance, even if he had free will or not)

It happened to be quite accurate when it comes to Lucifer and Adam's personalities, I doubt it was written by some rando who was relying on rumors

"accurate to their personalities"? adam appeared for like a second and all the book says is "Adam demanded control". that's like the bare minimum of a personality and is the same as rl's bible mythos written by humans, so there's nothing to say it wasn't just some author, and again, of a childrens book, not some historical record

It could even be written by lucifer himself, which would make sense that he removed some of the bad things to make it more charlie-friendly +he didn't appear to have any ill will for adam until it came to harming charlie, and most of their fight was more like a one-sided conversation (and i question if lucifer himself knew adam was the leader with the line "so this is what you've been up to since eden?")

This only adds to my suspicion of Lilith having "weird Stockholm Syndrome" (as much I hate that possibility-)

Personally i think there's going to be more to it than stockholm syndrome

Like, in mythology after she left, angels started killing her children (could be metaphorical children), so she started killing human children, then one day decided to return to adam but she found eve replaced her (so she rped adam, and with his seed produced more demons). could be that she's the reason hellborns aren't targeted 0-0 or something else...

I don't rly see how that could be anything ambitious

What i mean is he did it for himself, not for them, like he could have had more plans for them and how they would use their free will (he did make hell more like a circus after all, which has basically popularized clown stuff)

Sure, might not be a negative overall, but would mean not done for selfless reasons

since it just paints him after the fall as being immediately depressed/giving up and not trying anything afterwards

The timespan of events of the book are completely unknown, like it does cover 10,000+ years in roughly 2 minutes, and we do know that for some amount of time he was active in hell as he has a throne in the sins court room (meaning he was at least politically active with hellborns)

So the book is only blaming Lucifer for the creation of Hell, even though technically both him and Lilith are responsible, and at the same time the book still gives her credit (along with Lucifer) for "giving humanity free will"

It could be that she was tagging along and so she gets a shared mention but not the shared villainy

Or it could be part of my theory that lucifer wrote the book and he doesn't view her as doing anything wrong but also blaming himself

Damn, y'all are gossiping about this when I was gone—

Anyways I still stand by my original belief that Lucifer isn't responsible for Sinners CHOOSING to be evil

I always agreed with that

My point was never the conclusion but the explanation to the conclusion

He only said Lucifer is "the most hated being in creation", basically only attacking his reputation instead of the actual bad thing that he (supposedly) has done
I wonder if Adam knew anything

That's a good point

Tho its also plausible that he's hated for more than what WE saw

Kinda like the whole "i taught you everything you know, but not everything i know". basically, we don't know if everything we know is everything that can be known

This implies there was evil on earth before the apple was eaten, but if there was then there wouldn't have been a problem with evil entering earth

When I said "I think "no evil on Earth before the apple" is complete bs", I mean I believe it's Heaven propaganda, bc they refuse to accept that they're capable of creating anything evil, so they used Lucifer and Lilith as scapegoats to put all the blame on them

So no, evil and free will are not the same. you can do evil with free will but you don't have to be evil to have free will. they may have had free will before eating the apple, but there was no evil before then (so there's clearly a difference between the evil and adam wanting dominance, even if he had free will or not)

You don't have to choose evil to have free will, but you must still be CAPABLE of evil, even if you never choose it ever

This applies to good and neutral actions as well

If you're flat out INCAPABLE of doing smth specific (as opposed to simply choosing not to do it) then that isn't free will

"accurate to their personalities"? adam appeared for like a second and all the book says is "Adam demanded control". that's like the bare minimum of a personality and is the same as rl's bible mythos written by humans, so there's nothing to say it wasn't just some author, and again, of a childrens book, not some historical record

We see he has an army of women under his command, if that doesn't scream "he likes controlling women" idk what does

It could even be written by lucifer himself, which would make sense that he removed some of the bad things to make it more charlie-friendly +he didn't appear to have any ill will for adam until it came to harming charlie, and most of their fight was more like a one-sided conversation (and i question if lucifer himself knew adam was the leader with the line "so this is what you've been up to since eden?")

Tbh I still believe Lilith was the one who wrote it

It would make sense for Luci's depressed ass to depict Hell in such a negative light tho (like the whole implying that Hell is inherently evil and whatnot)

Tho there's another reason why I think "Lilith wrote the book, but she wrote it while knowing Lucifer could also read it" and it's how it painted Eve in a neutral light

Personally I believe Lucifer saw Eve in a positive way while Lilith wasn't very fond of her (I'm afraid of this comment getting WAY too long, but I can elaborate on this if you'd like, it's mostly based on visual cues)

Personally i think there's going to be more to it than stockholm syndrome

Like, in mythology after she left, angels started killing her children (could be metaphorical children), so she started killing human children, then one day decided to return to adam but she found eve replaced her [...] could be that she's the reason hellborns aren't targeted 0-0 or something else...

Ok so that extremely uncomfortable section of your quote that I left out aside-

1st of all it's been stated that Hellborns are pardoned bc of Lucifer

But if you're saying the Hellborn pardon deal could've involved Lilith staying in Heaven, personally I'm kinda iffy on it (bc it would mean the Exterminations only started 7 years ago?) but I do think it's possible

I prefer her staying on her own volition tho

As for Hellborns themselves, it's implied they're created by the Sins (at the very least Satan did say he created the Imps, unless you think he's lying)

Tho ig they could still metaphorically be Lilith's children since she's their queen

(Side note: imo it's possible Lilith wasn't involved in the pardon bc she cared more abt Sinners than Hellborns, like maybe she only wanted Charlie to be pardoned instead of every single Hellborn)

What i mean is he did it for himself, not for them, like he could have had more plans for them and how they would use their free will (he did make hell more like a circus after all, which has basically popularized clown stuff)

Sure, might not be a negative overall, but would mean not done for selfless reasons

Fair, tho I personally still think he did the right thing regardless of intention

Or it could be part of my theory that lucifer wrote the book and he doesn't view her as doing anything wrong but also blaming himself

Is there a reason why you don't think Lilith could've written the book? (sorry if I'm misunderstanding) /gen

Tho its also plausible that he's hated for more than what WE saw

Kinda like the whole "i taught you everything you know, but not everything i know". basically, we don't know if everything we know is everything that can be known

Also fair, tho when I said that I was thinking maybe the twist will be that Lucifer wasn't actually responsible for the evil on Earth

And that Adam knew this, but he's dead now so someone else has to reveal/uncover the truth

And Luci hated himself too much to ever question it (or maybe he did question at one point? Since Sera told Emily "if you start to question, you could end up like Lucifer, fallen")

Is there a reason why you don't think Lilith could've written the book?

Just never considered it or put thought into it

Personally i don't really think she did (i think lucifer would be more likely of the two), tho we don't know enough about her to properly judge something like that

bc it would mean the Exterminations only started 7 years ago?

Would mean the extermination went on, killing hellborn and sinner alike, for thousands of years until relatively recently

Tho i think my idea was a pretty massive stretch in general, i was just connecting theory to lore. but with adam in charge i wouldn't be surprised if he changes terms to agreements whenever he wants

I prefer her staying on her own volition tho

I completely agree

Personally, much prefer the idea that her being in heaven was her own idea

Tho ig they could still metaphorically be Lilith's children since she's their queen

Yeah, basically

In some texts words like "children" could actually refer to something more akin to "followers"

or maybe he did question at one point? Since Sera told Emily "if you start to question, you could end up like Lucifer, fallen"

This is one of those lines that really gives a lot of plausibility to the idea that there's a lot more we don't know that wasn't in the book

The book did really explain anything except, we basically got "he was an imaginative troublemaker" and "he did a good thing that resulted in a bad thing, now he's getting punished and he's sad" (which paints him pretty positively/sympathetically tbh)

Unrelated, but in mythology at least, after his banishment to hell, lucifer would then begin attempting to guide and teach humanity

Are we talking humans in hazbin or just humans in general irl or media

@Hazbinhotelanddcfan Idk man